A very brief but intense workout in the gym.
I had been reading Attia's concept of improving V02max. He describes it as a pyramid, the wide base of foundation and the peak of intensity / maximum capability. I don't particularly subscribe to his concept of 80/20 proportion of zone 2 / HIIT. But, not really sure of what 'zone 2' cardio actually is. Definitions vary from 60% to 75% of max HR. For me, based on a max HR of 185, that would be a large range from 111 to 139. Now I can definitely see the benefit of maintaining a session of w/ HR in the mid 130s, but that really would seem to be the minimum of anything that would help fitness... for me. I can stay in that range with just a leisurely flat bike ride or a swim. But, whenever I do something like a bike climb, stair master, rower, and certainly a track workout, I'm pushing my HR to near the max for a brief time.
Zone 2 seems to be a waste of time. Consider my gym workout today. Very brief, just 16 min hill climb program on the stairmaster (level 15), one set of hip flexor machine (25X), one set of adductors, and one 1:59 sec 500m sprint on the rower. It was over in 30 min. Including 10 minutes cool down, just walking, my avg HR was well over zone 2 at 154 for 40 min, peak of 186 on stairmaster, and 9:34 was over 170, 24% of the total time. It would seem to me, workouts like this would be more efficient and effective in developing V02max.
In a typical track workout, I'm well into zone 2 and at times, and sometimes higher during my 20-30 min warmup. After an intense tempo set lasting 5-12 min, my HR will stay at or above zone 2 for at least 15 min+ afterward. So, considering the time it takes to recover to a below zone 2 HR, you're talking an average of more than zone 2 over the course 45 min to an hour+. On days were I do full out long sprints like 150s to 300s with long rest in between, my HR will stay in zone 2 during long 15 min rests. I can easily average zone 2 HR over 2 hours on such days. So, what is the point in just doing zone 2 exercise? I mean it's better than nothing... but doesn't seem to really do it for me as far as developing athletic performance, or competition level V02max.
Anyway, Peter Attia is a 51 yr old "retired athlete," a former bike racer I think. I essentially started my masters athletic career at 48 with 5ks, then age 50 with track. Bottom line is Attia is not an athlete. I guess maybe his approach is more for the average non athlete? What do you think?
Stairmaster - 16 min level 15 hill program
25x hip flexor machine w/ 150lbs each leg
adductor machine 10X w/ 150 lbs
concept 2 rower 500m sprint 1:59
Holding at a nominal 144 lb weight.
Where do I start. 1) your HR data is questionable. Get a chest strap. 2) Attia is not developing a VO2 max program. He includes a nominal level of VO2 max training as VO2 max correlates to multiple health metrics. 3) zone 2 has nothing to do with VO2 max. It is defined as the level of work at which blood lactate does not accumulate beyond a certain level which means energy is derived from fatty acid metabolism and not glycolytic pathways. Research indicates that metabolic dysfunction starts in the mitochondria. Subjects with high insulin resistance (pre diabetic or diabetic) switch over to glycolytic energy production at low power output. So the goal of zone 2 is to exercise at just below the glycolysis threshold to develop and retain the ability of generating energy from fatty acid oxidation as impairment in this basic capability correlates to poor health metrics. Progression is measured by power increase at the stated blood lactate level, meaning it takes more work to trigger glycolytic energy production. Secondly, exercise at this level of intensity allows blood glucose partition as the contractions bring the receptors to the surface allowing glucose uptake.
ReplyDeleteI checked my monitor with a pulse count at near max HR, it was accurate. Attia has claimed numerous times 80% of exercise time should be in zone 2 to develop V02max. 20% HIT
DeleteRecovery heart rate has no meaning and should not be in any discussion about zone 2 or any other exercise zone. It is the HR while doing work that will correlate. If you want to define zone 2 accurately you need a blood lactate meter and test strips, like blood glucose tests. But the strips are like $2 each and the meter a couple hundred. Effort level and breathing level is a better proxy than HR.
ReplyDeleteTechnically, high heart rate during recovery and slow recovery to baseline HR implies a lack of cardiac fitness and/or low stroke volume. In the end what matters is the amount of blood pumped less stroke volume require more beats to deliver the same overall volume.
ReplyDeleteThis paper has been locked down but if you can find a free version of it, it is a good read https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C45&q=Iñigo+brooks&oq=in#d=gs_qabs&t=1721735616184&u=%23p%3DTC6ryNkqeaAJ
ReplyDeleteI should have said “Attila’s definition of zone 2”. Others may have a different definition, correlated to something other than blood lactate level.
ReplyDeleteATTIA FRAUD
DeleteWell any competent coach would call for a base of training from which to perform VO2 max training. VO2 max training is not sprint training- much longer intervals.
ReplyDeleteAnother way to identify zone 2 is the maximum effort that does note raise blood glucose.
ReplyDeleteHere is a pdf version of the excellent study on metabolic flexibility. Note the graphs that depict power, Cho (carbohydrate oxidation) and fat oxidation and how much power world class cyclists can put out with nearly entirely fatty acid oxidation. Metabolically dysfunctional subjects (pre diabetes, diabetes) almost immediately go into CHO for energy. https://escholarship.org/content/qt5cz1v976/qt5cz1v976.pdf
ReplyDeleteSo the point of zone 2 is to shift the curve to look more like the master athletes and derive power from fatty acid oxidation. The hypothesis is that will delay or even reverse metabolic syndrome as the theory is the disease starts in the mitochondria manifesting as an inability to derive energy from fatty acids at the cellular level. Of course as someone interested in longevity you know all about that ha ha
ReplyDeleteGENIUS
DeleteI was unaware that lactate may inhibit lipolysis, thus limiting metabolic flexibility
DeleteDo you measure Vo2 max regularly? Curious how it has changed over the years, especially since there is a strong negative correlation vs. age. If your results compare favorably with those from your days in the 50-55 age group then that strongly supports the benefits of track/speed workouts. I would also like to see if your top performances coincided with a top Vo2 max. Hopefully you have this data as it would make for some very interesting analysis.
ReplyDeleteNo I don't test my V02 max regularly, in fact have never really tested it in a lab scientifically. I don't think tests from sport watches are really valid (tests show they over estimate by 10+%). I can only estimate based on the standard Cooper test and race times. For example, age 61 I could comfortably run a half mile in 2:30, best time in a race 2:18. Running a mile and half in 10 min is easily obtainable (only 3:20 per 800m, laps at a pokey 1:40), would put me about 52, top 2% of my age. During peaks of training, probably at least mid 50s. Long sprint intensive tempo intervals definitely increase V02max.
DeleteApproximately, you are in the top 3 in the USA and top 5 in the World (say) as a sprinter with a range of 100 200 400, so your training works for you. It has done for a decade.
DeleteVO2 is irrelevant for sprinters.
There is no correlation between aerobic fitness and 100/200 success. At any meaningful level for elite, club or masters levels. There is a slight correlation for slower 400m times, perhaps slower than 60 secs. This is because they spend a longer period in an aerobic zone.
Too much sub max or near running does not meet the CNS, muscle fibre or mental attitude for sprinters.
The greatest correlation for a successful sprinters is to have raw speed over distances of less than 100m.
I would not dispute the health benefits of zone 2 or vo2 for everyday health.
Yes, there is definitely a correlation between V02max and 400m performance. The older and slower a masters 400m runner gets, the more aerobic it becomes. It wouldn't call it slight, but point taken about speed work, but 90% of short speed ability is generally natural and is enhanced by submaximal and strength training. It's all about surviving the training, and submaximal is more survivable for me. Not saying that short speed should be ignored. The best speed reserve is top speed.
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